Comparison: Baretta 92 and Fabrique Nationale Hi-Power

Somewhere along the way it morphed from self-defense shooting to an interest in accuracy.  A desire to group tightly and punch the center right out of the target.  Well, OK, wanting to look at others on the range and think "Nah nah na nah na I shoot better than you!".  But let that go...  I work with my carry piece virtually every week trying to get as close to that as I can.  But, of course, there's only so much you can ask of a short-barreled self defense carry gun.  It's made for more close up shooting.  I'll keep working on it, but the chances of my punching the center out of a target at 25 yards with a gun that has a 3.5 inch barrel is probably not real good.  I just figure the more I practice and use that as my goal the more likely that in a SHTF moment my muscles will know what to do when the rest of me is going "WHAT THE HELL?!"

I sold the Glock 19 on because I realized that I was never going to shoot well with it.  The grip, the trigger, and my small hands meant that I always felt like I was squishing things around after every shot, trying to get a better grip.  Not as bad as the day I was sweating like crazy and my first gun sort of popped out of my hands like I was trying to grab a fish, but once I started shooting other guns I realized that it just didn't feel right.

Anyway.  Murphy's Law is not one to not stoke a burgeoning gun addiction, so he's been good enough to lend me some guns to try.  Which is good - again, small hands, short arms, need to find right fit, which means handle the gun and stores don't tend to let you take their merchandise out for a trial at the range.  So he lent me two 9 mm guns to compare:  a Beretta 92 and a Fabrique Nationale/Browning Hi-Power.

First discovery was not so much a discovery so I knew to just keep at it - dadgum slides on unfamiliar guns.  It's not just hand strength, but also just getting the feel of how you need to hold and pull in order to rack the slide.  And I have at least learned to drop the magazine out if it's fighting back.  Seems a simple thing, but each gun is different and I have to work for a bit to find just the right grip and stress point to make it lock back.  It made life much easier once I realized I might have to mess around a bit to get the feel of each gun.

First up was last week - the Beretta 92.   Originally designed in 1972, a version of it is now the official military side arm.  A search on the serial number turned up a manufacture date of 1988 for this one, which formally lived with the New Orleans PD.  According to the ever useful Wikipedia:

In the 1970s every branch of the U.S. Armed Forces except the U. S. Air Force carried the .45 ACP M1911 pistol. USAF opted to use .38 special revolvers, which were also carried by some criminal investigation/military police organizations, USAF strategic missile (ICBM) officer crews, and by military flight crew members across all the services when serving in combat zones or when engaged in nuclear weapons duties.

The Department of Defense then decided to synchronize the weapons of all five branches of U.S. forces. The ground combat branches of the services found this decision highly contentious, but was meant to eliminate the need to buy replacements for worn out M1911 frames and to establish a common NATO pistol round to simplify logistics in case of war with the Soviet Union in Europe. In 1979 the Joint Service Small Arms Program began searching for a replacement for the venerable M1911, and the 9×19mm Parabellum round was selected for compliance with the NATO Standardization Agreement(STANAG). In 1980, the Beretta 92S-1 design was chosen over entries from Colt, Smith & Weson, Walther, the Star M28, and various Fabrique Nationale and Heckler & Koch models.

It's a real gun.  Not polymer - steel.  Heavy and very solid feeling.  One thing I found interesting is the open slide design:

 We got along very, very well, even with the large grips.

That was at maybe 15 to 18 yards - I was about 3/4 of the way back on the 25 yard range at 340 Defense for those that know that range.

Then I had to wait a while because the stars weren't aligning for pistol work.

But they matched up today for a short run to the range with the Baretta and another in tow - a Fabrique National (or Browning)  Hi-Power.  It's wiki entry says it started production in 1935 and:

The Browning Hi-Power was designed in response to a French military requirement for a new service pistol, the Grand Rendement (French for "High Yield"), or alternatively Grande Puissance (literally "high power"). The French military's requirements were that the arm should be compact, have a capacity of at least 10 rounds, a magazine disconnect device, an external hammer, a positive safety, be robust and simple to disassemble and re-assemble, and be capable of killing a man at 50 meters; this last criterion was seen to demand a caliber of 9 mm or larger, a bullet mass of around 8 grams (123.5 grains), and a muzzle velocity of 350 m/s (1148 ft/s). It was to accomplish all of this at a weight not exceeding 1 kg (2.2 lb).

FN commissioned John Browning to design a new military sidearm conforming to this specification. Browning had previously sold the rights to his successful M1911 U.S. Army automatic pistol to Colt's Patent Firearms, and was therefore forced to design an entirely new pistol while working around the M1911 patents. Browning built two different prototypes for the project in Utah and filed the patent for this pistol in the United States on June 28, 1923, granted on February 22, 1927.   One was a simple blowback design, while the other was operated with a locked-breech recoil system. Both prototypes utilized the new staggered magazine design (by designer Dieudonné Saive) to increase capacity without unduly increasing the pistol's grip size or magazine length.

Interesting note:  "Hi-Power" doesn't mean high power.  It refers to the ability to carry more ammo in the magazine.

This one's serial number says it was made in 1989.  Not as big as the 92, it's still a substantial pre-polymer gun.  I noticed one thing in particular - more muzzle flip than the 92.  I need to do more digging, because the stats I find for both guns right now are for current models, but I'd be interested in the weight difference.

92 top, Hi-Power bottom

And I don't have any pics from today.  For one, it was unpleasantly crowded.  I suppose people are off for Thanksgiving.  I did well to get a target out, let alone run down and get a picture.  For the other, ya know the John Denver song that says some days are diamond and some days are rust?  Today was rust.  There was an impermeable dome over the plate a good deal of the time.  I shot the daylights out of an area starting about where you see the tops of my fingers in the first pic all the way around the bottom at about that same hand width.  Yeah, I killed the bad guy but yeesh.  And because it was crowded I couldn't start closer and work back - I had to shoot the full 25 yards.  Ah well, another day.  Everybody please go back to work and let me practice in peace.  Although I was somewhat entertained by the guys next to me who had some sort of sooper dooper whizbangy laser sight on their pistol.  "It's the gun it's the gun the sights are off."  Partner takes gun and knocks the plates down one by one.  "The sights are not off.  I hit dead center every time I shoot it."  First guy tries again and doesn't shoot dooky.  "It's the gun it's the gun the sights are off."

The verdict right now - I like the 92 a bit better than the the Hi-Power.  On these specific examples I like the trigger on the 92 better than the one on the Hi-Power, but I realize triggers are changeable.  I liked the 92 well enough that when Someone-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named forwarded me a link for a heckofa price on one I grabbed it.  I didn't get more than 30 rounds through the Hi-Power today though.  It deserves further contemplation.

And now I have to go back to trusty Google and find out how to strip and clean these guys.

Mixed bag...

... at the range this week.  I want too much too soon and moved too far back at first, which cost me accuracy.  Felt better when I had chewed a good sized hole in the center of the target with the Browning after moving up again.  That's a fun gun to shoot - substantial feeling without being big or overly heavy.  Easy to control.  The little .38 is more of a problem.  I'm tending to the left, and sometimes I'm doing the mental equivalent of a face squinch just before it fires, which means I'm anticipating the shot and flinching.  The only solution I know is to go shoot it some more.

Range day!

Woo hoo!  Range day!  Tried out the Browning .32  cleaned per an earlier post, and the Harrington & Richardson Model 929 .22, as well as a Smith and Wesson Model 10 .38 revolver and a Ruger 10-22 rifle borrowed from the arsenal known as Murphy’s Lair.   

Absolutely loving the Browning – it fits my hand wonderfully and my reaction to the first shot was "Wow!  That feels great!"  I was really happy – I don’t know when this gun was last fired and I had never fired it before so I didn’t know what to expect.  It was still an adventure to reassemble after cleaning but eventually that will work out and I’ll lose my fear of having to hand over a plastic bag full of gun pieces to be reassembled.

The H&R 929 laid next to an uncle's bed for years, ended up in Dad's bed stand for years after that, and then came to live with me when Dad died.   Like the Browning, t's been languishing in my dresser drawer since 1998 and I have no idea when it was last fired before that. 

It was also good, but didn’t feel as outstanding in my hand.  Maybe I'm a bit prejudiced against the plastic grips. First rounds showed that I needed to find a different spot on the sight – I was hitting low.  I think that got fairly well worked out after a bit – I need to put a spot of white-out on the correct spot on the forward sight.   My hand also is not accustomed to the trigger, and I’m a lot more on target with single action than when I try to use it double action.  I end up concentrating so much on pulling the trigger that I pull up as I am firing.  This gun went out of commission as of the last time I went to empty the rounds. The pic here does not show the little screw that the cylinder assembly pivots around.  That would be because someone had lost the original and just put a standard screw in its place.  That screw worked out at some point while I was firing and dropped into the gravel, never to be seen again.  At least a replacement can be ordered.

The S&W 10 felt good – better than the H&R.  More substantial, but not too heavy or too large for my hands.  I fired one of the same size both times I was at the range before and they felt too big, but I think my hands are becoming more comfortable with guns in them so the feel is changing.  It's becoming less awkward. And Murphy makes sure the guns in the Lair are well cared for, so it may also reflect a gun that has been carefully cleaned and oiled as compared to one that sat forever without use or care.  It also had an easier trigger, but even with that I was still pulling up.  Single action best right now with the revolvers.  Time time time. Practice practice practice.

And about the third time I did it I realized I was cocking the revolvers for the first shot while they were still pointed down rather than after they were pointed at the target.  No no no.  I stand with my feet spread but as I brought the gun up it occurred to me that that was something that could go very wrong even with accidentally firing between my feet.   Although I guess I would only do that once. It would be one of those things that leaves an impression.

The rifle was fun – light and easy to use.  And I like rifles - I want to play with more.  I need to remember to snug them up  better – I end up carrying more weight than I need to but I tend to figure that out right about as I take the last shot in the magazine.  The one problem – I don’t see the target so good even with glasses after a certain distance.  So with the longer distance I was just hoping I’d hit somewhere in the target.

 

I need to learn to breathe.  I'd realize I had taken several shots and held my breath the whole time.  Need to work on my stance - my posture causes me back problems because I throw my weight wrong when standing and that's carrying over into my shooting stance.  And after about 3 shots my glasses would fog up.  Like, what?  Is my brain overheating from concentrating on aiming?

Finished up by watching a guy finish loading and fire his black powder rifle.  Cool gun, but, jeez, sure wouldn't want to be in a hurry.   And then of course the pleasantly messy job of cleaning.

A very fun day.  Very fun and satisfying.   Thanks, Murph, for the outstanding training.  And I'm still coming to your house come the revolution - you have more toys.  I'll bring the beer.

Well, it almost went right...

So today’s challenge was to clean Dad’s Model 1922 Browning .32.  Note to Dad – I know you thought it was safely hidden in your underwear drawer, but I’ve known where it was for more than 50 years.  I did always try to make sure the t-shirts were put back neatly after I had been messing with it, though.

I don’t know where Dad got it - it was just always there. Made by Fabrique Nationale in Belgium,  it has the Nazi stamps that show it was made during the German occupation.  The West Virginians from Dad's area all went to the Pacific.  Dad was a medic in the Philippines, and his unit was supposed to move into Japan with the first wave of Marines when the U.S. invaded.  Then, after carpet bombing didn’t get the idea across, a couple of larger bombs finally convinced some folks that it was time to quit, and he served as part of the occupying army in Tokyo.   He did bring some souvenirs home - the blanket the gun is laying on was courtesy of some Japanese cavalry horse - but the Browning must have been picked up later.

Anyway, this gun hasn’t been fired for I don’t know how long, and I thought it was time to make it useful again.    So, first step:

Safe?  Yes.  No surprises waiting.

Next step, take it apart.  I've a fair amount of confidence that I can take it apart.  It's the putting back together that concerns me.

OK.  Yes.  Some of it's a bugger just trying to move little pieces that haven't much to get hold of, but it's safely disassembled.    Now for application of a great deal of cleaning oil.

All the serial numbers on the parts match.

If I squint I can read all the stampings and see the German eagles on each part.                                       

Then came the reassembling.  Ummm... well.  It's the barrel.  No matter which way I turn it, I cannot get it to lock back in the way it is supposed to. Watched a video on field stripping this model, swear I'm doing it the same.  Went through it step by step to make sure I was doing exactly the same thing.  Over and over.  But that barrel ain't about to move past a certain point no matter how much wiggling or grumbling I do.  

So that's where I am right now.  Thought I'd set it down and go do other things for a while and see if I develop a magic touch in the interim.  Or if the shoe elves will fix it.  I wonder if there's a patron saint of I-took-it-apart-and-now-I-can't-get-it-back-together causes?

Added 10 min later:

Dang!  Decided to take one more crack at it and slide, click, done.  No gaurantee it will fire, but, hey, I figure this was a victory!